Polemika z rosyjskim polonofobem
po
wywiadzie z Witalijem Tretiakowem
na
łamach Rzeczpospolitej.
15 września 2009 roku pani Justyna Prus z Rzeczpospolitej przeprowadziła wywiad z Witalijem Tretiakowem, wpływowym i znanym rosyjskim politologiem, członkiem kolegium pozarządowej organizacji Rady ds. Polityki Zagranicznej i Obronnej Rosji i redaktorem naczelnym pisma „Politiczeskkij kłass”. Dawno już Rosjanie nie przemawiali do Polaków takim językiem i z taką butą. Kto z Państwa nie przeczytał tego tekstu, może jeszcze znaleźć go na witrynie: http://blog.rp.pl/blog/2009/09/15/witalij-tretiakow-nieszczesna-odwieczna-rusofobia-polakow/
Z okazji tego wywiadu redakcja Rzeczpospolitej otwarła forum do komentarzy czytelników. Wśród czytelnikow zawrzało. Jak zwykle posypały się mądre i niezbyt mądre opinie, bo niektorzy z dyskutantow nie mogli opanować zdenerwowania.
Od dawna zabieram głos w dyskusjach na blogach tego pisma jako AMC, ale na ogół ograniczam do krótkiej wypowiedzi i rzadko kiedy daję sie wciągnąć w szerszą dyskuję. Tym razem zacząłem jak zwykle krótkim komentarzem i miałem nadzieję, że na tym zakończę. Tymczasem odezwał się rezydent KGB w Polsce i najpierw po polsku, a potem po angielsku zaczął ubliżać Polakom. Żałuję, że dałem się wciągnąć w polemikę z osobnikiem, który wcale nie zamierzał z nikim dyskutować. Dla niego było to forum do wyrażenia swej pogardy i wyższości wobec Polaków.
15 września 2009 o 22:12
AMC:
W 1973 roku byłem z moim wujem na mszy w
rosyjskiej cerkwi w Paryżu (na rue Daru) za duszę Jurija Gałanskowa, zamęczonego
w łagrach. Po mszy wujek, rodem z Humania, zaczął rozmawiać z jednym z
“biełogwardiejców” i ten pod koniec zapytał:
A wy izkuda?
Z Polszi - odpowiedział wujek
Polsza? Polsza? A szto eto Polsza?
Po chwili jednak rozjaśniło mu się w głowie i z triumfem
mówi:
A, znaczyt sia
Priwislanskaja Gubernia!
Był to
być może dziadek pana Tretiakowa.
Wniosek jest taki: Rosja jest Rosją, niezależnie od tego czy carska,
stalinowska, czy putinowska. My dla nich jesteśmy i będziemy zawsze Priwislanska
gubernią. Ale pamiętają, że dwukrotnie sprawiliśmy im lanie.
Panu Tretiakowi chciałbym powiedzieć: “Skończcie z
marzeniami. Nie jesteście już i nigdy już nie będziecie mocarstwem, a Polska nie
zginęła, póki my żyjemy”.
AMC
do polonofoba o pseudonimie akkakebnekaise
17 września 2009 o 10:02
Let me tell you about
Future great Russian poets and writers will write in
English or German; future dancers will perform for La Scala, Opera de Paris, or
the Metropolitan Opera in
The Russians never in their history tolerated free speech;
neither have they felt the necessity for debates nor the clash of opinions.
Instead, they tolerated lawlessness, corruption and bureaucracy. In this way,
they degraded themselves among civilized nations. In my opinion, they will
always remain the sick men of the world, and never join the collective of free
countries. In the shadow of their gloomy pride as the former gendarme and
executioner of other nations, they would rather bite than accept a helping hand
from the West. Their leaders will steal billions of dollars given by the West to
the Russian people and put them in Swiss bank accounts. This money will not
serve nor enrich
In our wandering on the inhumane land, we sometimes
encounter good deeds from individual Russians. I feel a profound gratitude and
deep sympathy for them. Nevertheless, I cannot say that I feel the same way for
the Russian people. They cannot defend themselves by assuming that this terrible
system was imposed over them against their will. It was their own conception and
not of outside forces. Even today, many Russians believe that Stalin’s times
were the best and proudest moments in their history.
·
akkakebnekaise
Pisze:
18 września 2009 o 0:18
@AMC
I honestly think I should be
thankful for your short answers to my message here and do it with especial
pleasure after my previous messages were deleted by the editor - the brilliant
demonstration of freedom of speech on Rzeczpospolita!
I would like to attract your
attention to the following moments of your answers:
–
– You probably will be surprised, but I should
remember to you that
But the only thing I would be
agreed with you was your words that Russians would never be among the so-called
civilized nations which bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which built the gas
chambers for killing the prisoners during the World War II, which practiced the
kidnapping and retrieval of the human organs for sale (as the leaders of the
newly European state of Kosovo), which legalized the drag, which brought the
death to people in Yugoslavia, Iraq, Somalia, Afghanistan … - the list can be
continued - on the wings of bomb democracy …
And of course, I ought to mention that
I know the European guys are in
·
AMC Pisze:
18 września 2009 o 11:47
@ akkakebnekaise
Let me first answer your questions and comment your
statements:
1. Poland was indeed
part of Russian empire, but we never accepted it and we bitterly fought you
twice in failed insurrections, and finally the third time, in 1920, we beat you
and regained our sovereignty. Remember also that from 1610 to 1634 the heir of
the Polish throne was elected by Russian boyars to be Russian Tsar, and Polish
army occupied the Kremlin. This was the only time in your history when
2.
3. I
agree that Duma and Zemstvo was a Russian noble-minded endeavor to become a
democratic state. After Prime Minister Pyotr Stolypin was assassinated you lost
your chance. Otherwise, if his reforms have been implemented, today
4. Look what
happened after
Although you try to patronize me, I have no
objections to discuss further our points of view, so distant and different, but
we might not have chances to do it on this forum. So please let me finish with
telling you what happened to me in 1997.
During my son PhD dissertation at Boston University (USA),
a young man approached me and in presence of other students said loudly and
seriously:
- I know from your son,
how much your family and your people suffered in
I couldn?t believe what I heard.
- Are you a Russian, or may be you are an Ukrainian, or a
Jew ? I asked.
- No ? he answered
? I am a Great Russian.
Then, we
had a long and friendly discussion, which I summarized in following statement:
- The return to good-neighboring relations between our
nations can become reality, when the Russian people would understand the weight
of their crimes committed against their neighbors and their own people.
He agreed, and also agreed that this will not happen soon
Today, it is my sorrowful feeling, that we are
farther away of better relationship, than we were in 1997. We agree only that we
differ.
·
Lestek
Pisze:
20 września 2009 o 4:22
@Akkabebnekaise &
AMC
The depth of emotions
emanating from your both of you indicates that it is a disagreement between
members of an interelated, extended family, where unfullfilled expectations (on
both sides) result in bitterness and disappointment. There, certainly, has been
no logical sequential discussion, but a selective use o unrelated events from
the past (of both nations) to get temporary advantage. In all, it is to proof,
that either side thinks that it is beyond any reproach (which, in real life
seldom, if ever, is); the Russian idiom: “my bielyje i puszistyje” ans the
Polish “jestermy bez skazy” are very much applicable here. Not this way
“gospoda/panowie”. If there is a will for reconciliation, both sides will have
to try harder; the very few pronauncements of polititians or pundits/”akademiks”
will, just, not suffice.
Russia is too weak and
depleted for its previous imperial format (to which she has got used to) and
Poland has wasted too much time (during the last 20 years) going in too many
directions and not focusing on the real issues. A real and practical cooperation
may be actually beneficial for both Poland and Russia, but both sides have to
shed vestiges of the past misunderstandings, admit mistakes on wide social
scale/in forums and cease playing traditional roles, a process ongoing since
XVII century. It is, perhaps, time to do away with all these nonsense.
Alternatively, the matters should be given time to
cool off, to be picked up a generation from now. Given the present international
configuartion of vectors and political and economic pressures, I believe, that
time pressure will work more to a disadvantage of
The undersigned has attempted
to be even handed and has not ill will towards either the Poles or the Russian.
He is reasonably versant in history of both nations and “ou courrant” in the
present political/economic issues. He speaks and writes (and reads) in these two
languages, so please, no pulling wool over my eyes. We all may try to fool
someone else, we must not fool ourselves!
Lestek
·
akkakebnekaise
Pisze:
20 września 2009 o 12:48
@Lestek
No doubt that you know about
Russians a little bit more than many polish-speaking writers here in this blog.
So, to briefly demonstrate my message I would address you to the well-known
fable - The Elephant and The Mos’ka.
I am not sure
The only economic basis is a trade in the roubles.
There exists a generation in
·
AMC Pisze:
20 września 2009 o 12:52
@ Lestek
What exactly was inappropriate in my writing? Don’t
try to be my good uncle and your advice address to someone who knows
I challenged the official Russian view expressed by a well
trained propaganda apparatchik, who has been trying to degrade us as a nation
and me as an unintelligent, narrow-minded dummy. I think that I did answer
gently to his remarks, but enough is enough. I replied twice to his last note,
but I don’t have luck with Rzeczpospolita blog administrator ? a few of my notes
have been scrapped without any particular reason, may be by a pure neglect or
just randomly.
@ akkakebnekaise
I am trying for a third time
to answer your last note as of September 20, 20:10.
The result of our exchange of
opinions is: we agree to differ. I am sorry for you that you are as you are, and
you are sorry for me as I am as I am. Frankly, I would rather be free than
powerful.
·
Lestek
Pisze:
20 września 2009 o 16:42
@AMC
I have answered Gospodin
“Akkakebnekaise” separatly.
I do not patronise anybody,
just express my view, which although differnt than yours is, perhaps, equally
valid. I do not believe that having been lost in miniscule details serves the
purpose of seeing a larger picture or finding a way or ways to resolve the
undelying issue/issues or finding a way out the labiryth of the past hang-ups.
All the best.
Lestek
PS. I know
All the best,
Lestek
PS. I have left
·
AMC Pisze:
20 września 2009 o 18:56
@ Lestek
Dziękuję, że włączył się Pan elegancko w
moją wymianę opinii z tym Wielkorusem. Niestety, wadą mojego charakteru jest, że
reaguję emocjonalnie, w czym zresztą nie widzę nic złego. Zdarza mi się nawet,
chociaż bardzo rzadko, że płaczę i wcale to nie ubliża mojej męskości. Wydaje mi
się, że na te bezczelne dywagacje Wielkorusa, odpowiedziałem w miarę spokojnie.
Ale nie dało to żadnego wyniku. Dyskusja z takimi ludźmi to rozmowa ze ścianą.
Nie słuchają, wygłaszają za to z wyższością oracje pełne upomnień, nauczek i
pogróżek. Współczuję tym biednym ludziom, których los pokarał urodzić się na
nieludzkiej ziemi. To oni głównie są ofiarami takich jak mój Rozmówca, bo dla
rosyjskiej wierchuszki normalni Rosjanie to bydło, takie samo bydło jak Polacy.
To przecież u nich mówi się “U nas ludiej mnogo”. Niech Pan przeczyta mój
pierwszy wpis o tym, co o Polsce myślą rosyjskie ofiary bolszewizmu.
Pozdrawiam i życzę sukcesów, co w dalszej perspektywie
przełoży się na lepszy obraz Polski w świecie.
·
akkakebnekaise
Pisze:
20 września 2009 o 19:33
@AMC
If you are from