Talks of Chancellor Kohl with the President of the
"Solidarity" Trade Union, Walesa; Warsaw, 9 November 1989
The Chancellor greeted Lech Walesa (W) and reminded him of the
last meeting at the beginning of September-- since then a lot has
happened in Europe!
He hopes that a new chapter in the German-Polish relationship can now
truly begin. The strength of his delegation -- among them 80
personalities from business -- shows strong interest. If Poland only
created the necessary political infrastructure, one could do much
jointly: promotion of agricultural cooperatives, industrial concerns,
middle class enterprises -- already here in particular, there is
potential for cooperation.
The joint document negotiated by [our] personal representatives is
rational and forward-looking.
Indeed, one must know that the left in both states does not want this
visit to be successful. The discussion over the Annaberg has shown this,
also the way one psychologically punishes a whole group of the
population such as the exiles -- who are completely obliging -- until
they react.
A success in German-Polish relations in view of the dramatic
developments in the GDR would be especially compelling. No one can say
how it will continue -- not even Krenz. Every day between 10,000 and
15,000 people simply flee the GDR. Krenz told him -- the Chancellor --
over the telephone that he wants to continue with reforms, but following
the Moscow model, not Warsaw’s or Budapest’s. He wants to keep the
present Party control in practice. But this will not work; if Krenz does
not permit parties and guarantee free elections, there will be no peace.
Had Honecker implemented this two years earlier, this would have perhaps
worked; but now in the face of demonstrations of 500,000 people in
Leipzig, 600,000-700,000 people in Berlin, it is too late. One can no
longer align with the police and tanks against such a crowd of people.
Gorbachev also realizes this.
This is why a success with reforms here in Poland is so important.
This success would be a first-class European event. Therefore, he -- the
Chancellor -- wants to do everything to contribute to this success.
Clever politics is necessary on both sides.
W thanked [the Chancellor] for the opportunity to have these
talks and responded to the Annaberg theme, that in this case one
doesn’t want to emphasize it too much. One should not forget that
there was an iron curtain between the two states, that the Polish people
would have been poorly informed on the Chancellor’s plans and efforts.
The present opening is still too new to overcome these molds, these
moods. In a month one could not imagine this-- in half a year there will
no longer be such a problem.
Today, however, the widespread fear of German aggression, German
tanks, continues to have an effect. The Communists psychologically
maintained this picture -- the Chancellor interjected: And
exploited it.
W advises to wait calmly for things to develop.
He sees the developments in the GDR as very dangerous. One must try
to slow them down. He had said earlier that it would be good if the GDR
remained in fifth or sixth place (among the reform states). He would
have preferred it if developments had maintained a certain order -- with
Poland and Hungary on top. But now one stands unprepared before a new
situation. One needs brave solutions -- for instance a complete opening:
everyone could go where it suits him. But no one is prepared for such
solutions.
In the GDR everything works in the short-term and is thought of
belatedly. A stream of people moves to the West and no one is left to
turn out the light. He asks himself if the Federal Republic of Germany
would stop this influx. For Poland, the developments come at a the wrong
time, then the Federal Republic of Germany would be compelled to direct
its gaze on the GDR as a top priority -- whereby in which case Polish
reforms would inevitably be in the background.
The Chancellor interjected that this is not his
policy—without the developments in Warsaw, there would not be these
developments in the GDR—and if the Warsaw reforms were to fail,
nothing further would happen in the GDR.
W replied that admittedly this is logically correct; on the
other hand the situation in the GDR is developing with fast leaps and
bounds—he asks himself, what would happen if the GDR completely opened
its border and tore down the Wall—must the Federal Republic of Germany
rebuild her [East Germany] again?
The Chancellor continued, if the number of refugee seekers
grew dramatically again, the GDR would collapse.
W continued anew, the development of reforms in the GDR is
late—and if the GDR can’t and won’t go further, it would seek to
shift the debt to the Federal Republic of Germany.
The Chancellor views such a course as unlikely: yesterday in
the German Bundestag he said that there were three points that were
crucial: admission of free parties, free elections, and credible
guarantees. Then the Federal Republic of Germany could also help.
W views such developments as coming too late—if it were up
to him to decide in the GDR, he would announce that the complete opening
(of the border) has been prepared, explain a political program along
these lines, and introduce a clever solution that won’t result in
confusion. But this is not possible now. One already knows this in
Poland from personal experience. He would have preferred a clean
solution—"with gloves". But now one must improvise. In spite
of everything, the attempt must also be made in the GDR to carry out a
well-thought-out solution, otherwise there will be chaos.
The Chancellor repeated: truly free parties and free elections
are what the people in the GDR are now waiting for.
W asked if there is anyone with whom one can talk rationally
with.
The Chancellor repeated his picture of the GDR leadership. It
is not about one person, rather it is about many who feared losing their
advantages and now have genuine anxiety. Within the leadership there are
three groups:
- People who still believed ten days ago that things could be brought
to order through the removal of Honecker—now they have detached
themselves—"the old cement-heads" [die alte Betonkoepfe]
are gone.
- Krenz and his followers, who would like to implement reforms,
such as a leading role for the Party, after the model of the Soviet
Union.
- Finally, the third group is difficult to characterize—however,
it clearly wants actual changes. He received inquiries on conditions,
but of course answered that the Federal Republic of Germany has no
conditions to pose; rather, all decisions must come from the GDR
itself.
Above all he emphasized that he could give comprehensive help if there
were actual reforms: the founding of free labor unions, free parties,
free elections, guarantees . . . if the GDR doesn’t go down this path,
they will be swept away.
W emphasized anew fear and concern over the uncontrollable
developments. The situation in the GDR calls for a brave solution. . . .
He sees no (long-term) plans. The SED is not in the position to carry
out reforms, no one would believe them. Perhaps one should think about
including the UN. But there is no person, no institution in
particular—such as the Church in Poland—with which one can discuss
[matters] rationally and control the situation. There is no earnest
organization—although certain people from the nomenklatura could play
with military power.
The Chancellor repeated: Military power will help no one now.
However, the example of Hungary could help. There some people realized
that reforms were important.
W does not see a second Hungary in the GDR as possible. He
wonders whether the Wall will stand again in one or two weeks.
The Chancellor emphasized that the peaceful course of the
demonstrations has very clearly proven that the people are not radical.
W reported from his own experience that he also first
emphasized the results after the "Round Table" talks, but was
overtaken by the outcome. Particularly because of that, he has concerns
that events in the GDR are developing too quickly.
The Chancellor pointed out that the GDR, in contrast to Poland
and Hungary, is not a country, rather it is a part of Germany. If there
were a firm arrangement on the admission of parties and a guarantee of
free elections, then the people would no longer leave. Since there are
still remnants of earlier parties—though this doesn’t count for the
East CDU—there could be a new infrastructure in a quarter of a year.
Prof. Geremek interjected that the same question presents
itself in the GDR as in Poland: Society wants freedom, not parties. If
one were to put this to the test, then where does the Wall still stand?
The Chancellor replied: with these developments the Wall will
without a doubt be cleared away. On the other hand, if one shoots,
everything would be over.
W sees difficulties with the re-establishment of parties
because many of the most active leadership personalities are already
gone. Perhaps the party problem is even on the back burner. For the
people the cry "we want parties" is, as in Poland, about
freedom.
W asked about the economic and benefits situation in the GDR.
The Chancellor sees this as a small problem. Besides,
yesterday in the German Bundestag he emphasized our preparedness to help
if free labor unions and parties were allowed and free elections were
guaranteed. One could activate the GDR economy quite quickly. Naturally
the help must be significant—he harbors no illusions about this.
Especially in the current situation—the Chancellor continued—he
wants to clear things up with Poland. He wants to achieve results due to
bilateral relations, but also as a result of developments in the GDR. It
would be utterly wrong to allow the GDR current priority and to claim
that Poland is no longer a theme. Because the developments are not a
German, but rather a European problem. Everything that he does as a
German in this situation, judges [sic]: How will this work in Europe?
In Paris, London, Rome, Warsaw there are many people who did not wish
for these developments. That is exactly why one must try to reach a
consensus. He spoke with President Mitterand about this eight days ago
and then stated with him at a press conference: Now more than ever the
Federal Republic of Germany needs the partnership with France—it is
existential. For we are a piece of Europe. The Germans are not the
measure of all things.
He can only repeat: If things in Poland develop for the worse, then
the same will happen in the GDR—that is exactly why he would give
important impetus here.
W asked if the Federal Republic of Germany could accept a
million people from the GDR.
The Chancellor saw such an influx of refugees as unlikely.
From his own conversations, he knows that these are normal people who
actually didn’t want to leave; rather, through their flight they
wanted to force better living conditions in their homeland.
W clarified anew his concerns about uncontrolled developments
and "revolutionary chaos." There is a joint interest that
things develop peacefully.
The Chancellor emphatically agreed. However he—the
Chancellor—cannot make a decision together with Walesa. People in the
GDR leadership need yet another lesson, specifically that which does not
continue with the current power of the Party. There is no military
alternative—either with their own or with Russian soldiers. But just
because a few people wanted to save the leadership, they would not carry
out a scorched earth policy .
W nevertheless does not rule out a development in which
martial law or a state of emergency [are declared.]
The Chancellor repeated anew, the people want change, not
revolution.
W and G doubt that this also holds for the youth.
The Chancellor repeated: Naturally they want changes and a
better standard of living, but they also see the costs and risks.
Next week there will be a new government in East Berlin. He does not
know the designated Minister President, perhaps a few people of his
background. It would not surprise him—the Chancellor—if he would
attempt after a while to push Krenz to the side and take over his role.
Besides, the people in the GDR are well informed on relations with
us. They knew what they expected in the Federal Republic of Germany. 14
million travelers over the past year also conveyed personal impressions.
For this reason also he believes that it will not be realized. In
demonstrations of 500,000 people, no broken windows—this was indeed
notable. (Digression: GDR refugees in the embassies in Warsaw and
Prague.)
In closing, the Chancellor gave his convincing impression that
one can have things in the GDR under control with determined steps in
the direction of admission of free trade unions, free parties and, in a
realistic perspective, free elections. The Catholic and Evangelical
churches played a stabilizing role throughout.
After the arrival of Cardinal Hengsbach, the Chancellor
clarified anew that developments in the GDR would not change his policy.
He wants the success of reforms in Poland and Hungary. They are
significant for all of Europe—if they are not successful, there will
be no rational developments in the GDR.
He expressed his readiness to remain in contact with Walesa in case
of a dramatic worsening [of the situation.]
W thanked [the Chancellor] for the talk.
Participants on the Polish side
Prof. Geremek
Participants on the German side
AL 2
RL 212 [note-taker]
Frau Hamerlak-Hermesdorf (translator)
Kaestner
Translated by Catherine Nielsen, The National Security Archive,
George Washington University
[Source: Published in Dokumente zur Deutschland Politik; Deutsche
Einheit: Sonderedition aus den Akten des Bundeskanzleramtes 1989/90,
Hans Jürgen Kusters and Daniel Hofmann, eds. (Munich: Oldenbourg Verlag,
1998), document number 76, pp. 492-496]
(From Poland, 1986-1989: The End of the System, Miedzeszyn-Warsaw,
Poland, 20-24 October 1999)